Women, Men...help me think this through...

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Dev
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Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Dev »

I wanted to do a blog post on this but realized I needed to do some more thinking through to clarify my ideas, thus, I am sharing here first. Comments are welcome!

First thing, as a bit of background: here in the Devoted Lover household, I am definitely in charge and have been forever. Heck, I was the person who proposed to Ab! It wasn’t anything that was specifically discussed or negotiated; it is just how things worked for us—practically from our very first date. That’s our life. I never called our arrangement a female-led relationship or wife-led marriage or any variation on that term—in fact, I never even heard of those terms until a few months ago, when I started exploring chastity.

Well, naturally, because I am a curious person, once I became aware of the FLR phenomenon, I started reading various FLR blogs. Some of them really rub me the wrong way and I have been trying to figure out why. I mean, here I am doing this FLR thing and have been doing it forever so I think I would have some expertise on the topic, right? I realized that what these blogs describe bear no relationship to the life Ab and I are leading. So am I doing it “wrong”? (I don’t think I am.)

Many of these blogs describe a moment when the woman decides “I am in charge!” and then taking charge involves asserting her dominance and control, usually through a “program” that includes punishment and humiliation. This is designed to make the husband become subservient and submissive and further asserts her role as the leader of the relationship.

Note that I understand the difference between erotic punishment/pain (such as mikecb and Thumper enjoy) and erotic humiliation (such as Celtic Queen describes with her husband). These blogs, to me, are not reflecting that. What I am reading sounds like a training program that you’d use with a dog. It’s not just the posts in the blogs. Sometimes it’s the comments that appall me—encouraging physical brutality that to me borders on abuse as a way of encouraging a husband to “learn his place.” Then there’s the “being pantied 24/7” phenomenon. And the painted toenails. And so on. You guys know what I am talking about.

Fine and dandy, if that’s how these people live their lives. But I what I still didn’t understand was why it bothered me so much?

I had a lightbulb moment the other day (and yes, I am finally getting to the point of this post). (Also, warning, feminist stuff ahead…). What these women are describing as their tools to enforce their FLR: brutality, oppression, degradation and abuse, have typically been the tools of the patriarchy to maintain control. The most extreme example is war, of course, but even in the workplace or in life, I can think of many men who use these techniques to maintain their authority.

Women, I believe, come from a different mindset. Yes, it’s the trite cliché, “Men are from Mars, women are from Venus” but I do believe there is a difference between the sexes. Some men trend more like women and some women trend more like men, but speaking in broad generalities, we’re different.

Getting back to FLR, these women purport that they are leading which in fact they may be doing, but they are leading by adopting (one might even say aping) the tools of the patriarchy rather than using their uniquely feminine (or matriarchal) abilities to assert their leadership. And by feminine abilities, I don’t mean batting their (our) eyelashes and acting all weak and naïve. Instead I am thinking of skills such as effective communication, process, and consensus-building. This is how I run things in our home. I don’t whip Ab because he hasn’t completed a list of chores to my satisfaction. I don’t even give him a list of chores! But he knows what needs to be done and everything is done, with very little pressure or direction from me.

So that helped me realize why these blogs bug me so much. They aren’t describing a FLR, they are describing a “Female-Acting-Like-a-Man Led Relationship.” Big difference, I think.

Bringing this back to chastity…if a woman is content and happy in her marriage, why would she want to upset the apple cart to do something new? Especially if this new thing is encumbered with the expectation that she will behave in a way that is diametrically opposed to what is her normal (female) personality and way of doing things? Because as we all know, if a woman goes searching for info on MC, it doesn’t take much googling to come up with the punishment and humiliation stuff. If that had been the first thing I had read, who knows if I would have ever gotten this chastity idea in my head. There’s a question I wonder about.

Further, Thumper wrote this the other day: “as a guy in this dynamic you end up needing to rechannel your distinctly male sexuality through female circuits. Specifically, the female you've handed control over to.” I agree, but taking this further, I think they guy needs to accept a different kind of leadership, that is, female leadership using female techniques.

And therein lies the rub. One, if the guy who is looking to be chaste has typically been “the head of the household” then he is going to need to give up that role—at least partially (ie, within their sexual relationship) and maybe completely if it extends to their entire marriage. Second, if the wife has typically not been in a leadership role in their marriage, then she is going to need to be supported to take this on. My thesis would be that on this point, she is going to be more successful and comfortable if she is encouraged to learn/adopt a female leadership style (which should be somewhat natural) vs. expecting to act like a man. And, ultimately, I think this is what will determine if a couple is going to be successful in creating a chaste relationship.

Okay, I’ve rambled enough. Like I said, thoughts are welcome. Tell me which points you agree or disagree with…or, have I missed the boat completely? I look forward to the discussion!

D
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by davidphd1866 »

Dev,

I think you described things perfectly. Or at least ask the right questions. Your statement about female leadership being different (consensus building, etc.) is the breakthrough here. FLR's where the woman tries to act like a man are off-putting to most of us and you helped explain why.

For us chastity has been a way for my wife to "have it her way" in the bedroom. That is, being able to do it from the woman's perspective and style and not the man's.

David
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Atone »

I don't think I have much to offer here but once you figure this out maybe you can help me understand this - If a woman believes in female superiority why would she feminize her man?

-A
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Shane67
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Shane67 »

Most of us understand the dynamics of turning pain into pleasure, or more of a stretch, turning humiliation into love. It's playing with a taboo, a perversion of the usual dynamics between two people. When viewed through that lens, what could be more perverted than using the tools of the patriarchy against the patriarch himself? In other words, "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man" is just another kink. Personally, I think these blogs are just playing with a Femdom convention -- the blogs might be true, but it's a selective truth, a sort of highlight-reel for a certain kinky audience.

What bugs you more, is it the "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man Led Relationship" itself, or is it the "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man Led Relationship" as envisioned by a man?

You've touched upon why so many men fail when trying to introduce chastity or any other kink to their relationship though. You're right: she will use the tools she's most comfortable with, communication, process, and consensus-building, and this is not nearly as hot as her pulling out a whip and beating you into submission.
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by mikecb »

Dev,

What a fascinating and brilliant line of thinking!

I do have a few little nuggets to throw into the mix. One is, the potential difference between FLR and Femdom. I believe that you identify as being in a FLR, leading as a woman would lead a relationship. Perhaps the key notion in Female Domination is the "Domination" aspect - which is more of a masculine concept. So perhaps Femdom relationships are led in a more masculine way, and FLR relationships are led in a more classically feminine way?

Another variable out there is the notion of Female superiority. Personally, I don't believe in female superiority any more than I believe in white supremacy. I think it's a fundamentally flawed notion. Still, let's suppose one is a female supremacist. As such, then, a man is an inferior creature, un-entitled to any basic human rights. One would expect that in a relationship between female led relationship with a supremacist that the male would be subjected to less than equal treatment. At best, perhaps the male is treated as a valued pet, rather than a full equal.

I think either of those concepts may be contributing to the disconnect you feel with other women blogging about their FLRs. Perhaps sorting the bloggers you see with those two filters helps a bit?

mikecb
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Dev
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Dev »

Shane67 wrote: When viewed through that lens, what could be more perverted than using the tools of the patriarchy against the patriarch himself? In other words, "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man" is just another kink.
Well that's certainly an interesting way of thinking about it! Maybe you are right but something tells me that would require a certain level of insight and awareness that I am not sure we can consider to be operative. Still, it's a unique perspective.
What bugs you more, is it the "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man Led Relationship" itself, or is it the "Female-Acting-Like-a-Man Led Relationship" as envisioned by a man?
So are you saying that the blogs are fantasy, written by men? That's what Ab tells me they are. But I wonder because of the amount of details as well as photos. They seem real to me.
You've touched upon why so many men fail when trying to introduce chastity or any other kink to their relationship though. You're right: she will use the tools she's most comfortable with, communication, process, and consensus-building, and this is not nearly as hot as her pulling out a whip and beating you into submission.
Perhaps that would/could come with time? Look who is playing with a prototype Humbler and asking her husband (the man on whom it will be placed) to build it. (Oh, wait, am I turning the tools of the patriarchy on the patriarchy by doing that? LOL.) Six months ago I never would have thought of such a thing. Now it is turning me on. And Ab has a terrified look in his eyes which I think is a sign of him getting hot. So maybe because of chastity we are pushing our boundaries and both of us moving out of our comfort zones. The pain/pleasure thing has never been much on our agenda. Now we're intrigued with the idea.

D
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Dev »

mikecb wrote:Dev,

What a fascinating and brilliant line of thinking!
Well thank you! It always makes my day when something I do is brilliant, especially because I am having a pretty shitty day....sigh....(nothing to do with chastity. Just work.)
I do have a few little nuggets to throw into the mix. One is, the potential difference between FLR and Femdom. I believe that you identify as being in a FLR, leading as a woman would lead a relationship. Perhaps the key notion in Female Domination is the "Domination" aspect - which is more of a masculine concept. So perhaps Femdom relationships are led in a more masculine way, and FLR relationships are led in a more classically feminine way?
That's an interesting idea. Of course, people are pretty loose with the terms but what else would we expect? It's not like there's a glossary written for this stuff... :D
Another variable out there is the notion of Female superiority. Personally, I don't believe in female superiority any more than I believe in white supremacy. I think it's a fundamentally flawed notion. Still, let's suppose one is a female supremacist. As such, then, a man is an inferior creature, un-entitled to any basic human rights. One would expect that in a relationship between female led relationship with a supremacist that the male would be subjected to less than equal treatment. At best, perhaps the male is treated as a valued pet, rather than a full equal.
But then, why would one want to marry a man if he is so inferior? And purport to be in love with him? And take on a male lover who can provide a level of sexual service far beyond what the husband is able to provide? Is it selective? Not all men are inferior, just the one the woman happens to be married to?

Just thinking with my fingers on the keyboard here...

D
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Celtic Queen
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Celtic Queen »

Excellent subject.

There is an enormous amount of (forgive the Brit) bollocks out there on FLRs that is actively unhelpful to anyone starting out and you know what..

..I think most of it is written by guys so all a lie or men pleasers which is NOT an FLR in my view.

The stuff written by men does tend to come across in an obvious way - oddly,it's normally badly written, grammatically challenged and the stuff of some guy's unfulfilled kinky fantasy. They seem to have common cuckolding themes, forced panty wearing rubbish and the sub hub ends up chained to the bed dressed in satin whilst his wife - interestingly -behaves JUST LIKE A BLOKE SHAGGING ABOUT. Strange that.

So, filtering that out -hilarious though it usually is, the other "man pleasing" stuff annoys me intensely.This is women attempting to be a man's FemDom fantasy sex vixen and as you identify Dev- behaving like a man in bossing about in an aggressive authoritarian manner. All utter fabricated nonsense and not to be confused with real life relationships.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, everyday women bring up kids, create domestic boundaries and successfully run household budgets. There are literally millions of rather traditional female led households in the world that weren't negotiated - they just evolved because women running the stable community environment is how our species evolved and succeeded. My overwhelming feeling is that modern day intervention /culture has led to the view that man is the head of the household and the FLR seems to be a revolution. It isn't. Matriarchal societies have been around since we have- female led environments make for stable home and hearth and men have been satellites orbitting this between hunting expeditions and land raiding. Modern man is at constant war with his own limbic system and our expectations of a stable, monogamous society needs help to work. Bring on male chastity...

The whole concept of either gender having supremacy is a human conceit that makes no sense whether it favours males or females.Think of the unstability in the East where women have no voice. Look to the West where boys are now falling behind in the female favouring educational system and the problems building for the not too distant future. Favouring one gender simply leads to endangered species. There is a hilariously tragic anecdote about an Amazon tribe dying out after adopting cannabilism and eating an unsustainable level of its own womenfolk

In summary, Dev, I think these blogs annoy you because you instinctively know you are being spun a line and ultimately patronised by idiots.
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by klick »

And therein lies the rub. One, if the guy who is looking to be chaste has typically been “the head of the household” then he is going to need to give up that role—at least partially (ie, within their sexual relationship) and maybe completely if it extends to their entire marriage. Second, if the wife has typically not been in a leadership role in their marriage, then she is going to need to be supported to take this on. My thesis would be that on this point, she is going to be more successful and comfortable if she is encouraged to learn/adopt a female leadership style (which should be somewhat natural) vs. expecting to act like a man. And, ultimately, I think this is what will determine if a couple is going to be successful in creating a chaste relationship.
Short answer: If my wife had acted like a man, a typical patriarch, it would never had worked. She is still a "female". I consider myself living in a kind of matriarchy in the most positive meaning.

The long answer to this very interesting question would involve the evolution of the patriarchal western society.
I have spent a long time thinking about this. I think the western society has gone wrong. It is very difficult for both men and women to suddenly change behavior we have learnt since we were born.
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Re: Women, Men...help me think this through...

Post by Dev »

Short answer: If my wife had acted like a man, a typical patriarch, it would never had worked. She is still a "female". I consider myself living in a kind of matriarchy in the most positive meaning.
I think my husband would agree with you on that although he wouldn't use the term matriarchy. For some reason he doesn't like that word--not sure why. So, instead, he sometimes calls himself submissive but he isn't, really, and he knows he isn't. Thus we don't call it anything--not that everything needs to be labeled. But it helps me understand the dynamic between us, especially now that we have the added dimension of chastity.

D
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